"Scary woman" is not a flag reason.

The heck? Why is the latest flag reason in Russian?

This set is going beyond the scope of Danbooru itself and into the realm of a phychological case study on why they upset people so much.

OOZ662 said:

This set is going beyond the scope of Danbooru itself and into the realm of a phychological case study on why they upset people so much.

It's low quality, borderline off-topic, and somehow keeps getting reapproved. There's your thesis.

feline_lump said:

It's low quality, borderline off-topic, and somehow keeps getting reapproved. There's your thesis.

As low-quality and off-topic as any other cosplay photo taken outside of a convention hall.

I say it's the exact mirror of many western art deleted here. Only this time the moderation queue insists on keeping it reapproved will all impunity because "boobies" under the weak excuse it's "anime related".

OOZ662 said:

As low-quality and off-topic as any other cosplay photo taken outside of a convention hall.

Yes. I'm glad you understand now.

rom_collector said:

I say it's the exact mirror of many western art deleted here. Only this time the moderation queue insists on keeping it reapproved will all impunity because "boobies" under the weak excuse it's "anime related".

You understood nothing.
Why are you insisting that this is the same as a random picture of a child by a poolside ('im referencing your comments from that other post that I deleted manually)?
The ToS are extremely clear regarding cosplay content. If this image meets the quality criteria be left open.
But she clearly is cosplaying one character from a fairly established Japanese (game) series.
If you think that has the same topicality as a speedo-wearing child then I question your credibility in this whole discussion to be honest.
If this image goes deleted: So be it. But be aware that this post was, is and will ever be on topic:

Prohibited and Restricted Content
You may not upload any of the following:

Non-anime: Photographs of American porn actresses, for example, are prohibited. Photographs of cosplayers, figures, or prominent figures in the industry are acceptable.

Only because cosplay photo uploads are rare, it doesn't mean that they are disallowed because they are off topic.
Boobies have absolutely nothing to do with that as also cosplays of males were approved in the past. But since you brought up this argument, I believe you didn't quite get why we even approve this cosplay stuff.

rom_collector said:

I say it's the exact mirror of many western art deleted here. Only this time the moderation queue insists on keeping it reapproved will all impunity because "boobies" under the weak excuse it's "anime related".

I personally reapproved it because

• The flag reason made no sense this time around, and all the others claiming it's off-topic are blatantly wrong;
• It's an (imo) acceptable cosplay of an anime character.

I don't see why it's so hard to understand that cosplay pictures are accepted on danbooru.

Provence said:

Only because cosplay photo uploads are rare, it doesn't mean that they are disallowed because they are off topic.
Boobies have absolutely nothing to do with that as also cosplays of males were approved in the past. But since you brought up this argument, I believe you didn't quite get why we even approve this cosplay stuff.

I saw this and it was posted over 11 years ago, so yes point taken.

nonamethanks said:

I don't see why it's so hard to understand that cosplay pictures are accepted on danbooru.

I can flag a western image with "off topic and bad anatomy" and everyone will more or less understand what I mean. People who make a fuss about it will be encouraged to look at the post on its own merits instead of debating semantics.
But if I flag this set for being a poor quality cosplay, many of the same people who agree that the above reason is acceptable will come out with "why did you mention cosplays? Cosplays aren't off topic" and ignore the blatant quality issue.

Further, people are using this logic to defend only this one set in particular, ignoring the vast amounts of cosplay posts that are downvoted and deleted, sometimes even flagged for quality issues without getting nearly the amount of rabid defense as this one set of a slightly chubby girl with acne and bad makeup.

That is what is difficult to understand.

feline_lump said:

I can flag a western image with "off topic and bad anatomy" and everyone will more or less understand what I mean. People who make a fuss about it will be encouraged to look at the post on its own merits instead of debating semantics.
But if I flag this set for being a poor quality cosplay, many of the same people who agree that the above reason is acceptable will come out with "why did you mention cosplays? Cosplays aren't off topic" and ignore the blatant quality issue.

Further, people are using this logic to defend only this one set in particular, ignoring the vast amounts of cosplay posts that are downvoted and deleted, sometimes even flagged for quality issues without getting nearly the amount of rabid defense as this one set of a slightly chubby girl with acne and bad makeup.

That is what is difficult to understand.

That is probably because most people have a very poor understanding of what actually is acceptable. This sadly goes up to moderator level that can approve stuff.
There seems to be the point of view that we are accustomed to anime styled art that is drawn on Danbooru, meaning most people think other stuff (western, Cosplay, reference pictures) are prhibited by default and think that they have no place here whatsoever.
To be honest, you won't get passed this since Danbooru fousses primarily on drawn stuff that is undenyably anime-styled. But before flagging such content for being off topic ne should make clear what actually is off topic. That is the true problem with this set, not that it may have quality issue (maybe they have, I said that I left that open). If we start deleting cosplays for being "off-topic" then we are betraying the guidelines of what's acceptable and the thought that cosplay have here no place are getting intensified. That's to avoid.

feline_lump said:

I can flag a western image with "off topic and bad anatomy" and everyone will more or less understand what I mean. People who make a fuss about it will be encouraged to look at the post on its own merits instead of debating semantics.
But if I flag this set for being a poor quality cosplay, many of the same people who agree that the above reason is acceptable will come out with "why did you mention cosplays? Cosplays aren't off topic" and ignore the blatant quality issue.

Further, people are using this logic to defend only this one set in particular, ignoring the vast amounts of cosplay posts that are downvoted and deleted, sometimes even flagged for quality issues without getting nearly the amount of rabid defense as this one set of a slightly chubby girl with acne and bad makeup.

That is what is difficult to understand.

In the flag list I see no entry that complains about the quality of the cosplay. "non-exceptional" means nothing in a database with millions of pictures.
And even then, it's all a matter of approvers' taste. If any of us disagrees with the flagger they are free to reapprove a post.

There's nothing else that goes on regarding how a post is judged besides whether an approver likes it or not. This is balanced out by the fact that many can flag but few can approve, and nobody can approve a post twice in a row (and it almost never happens that someone would reapprove anything twice in general anyway).

Several independent approvers have reapproved this post over several months, which means it was good enough for danbooru according to them. That's it.

If you feel that some of the deleted ones deserve to be undeleted, appeal them or post them in the deletion appeal thread - I can assure you several of us frequently check them. But what we can't do is be omniscient, which is why comparing an active picture to deleted ones makes no sense. Approvers come and go, and stuff sometimes slips by, so pictures should be judged by their merits alone, not by comparing them to others in the database.

Provence said:

That is probably because most people have a very poor understanding of what actually is acceptable. This sadly goes up to moderator level that can approve stuff.
There seems to be the point of view that we are accustomed to anime styled art that is drawn on Danbooru, meaning most people think other stuff (western, Cosplay, reference pictures) are prhibited by default and think that they have no place here whatsoever.
To be honest, you won't get passed this since Danbooru fousses primarily on drawn stuff that is undenyably anime-styled. But before flagging such content for being off topic ne should make clear what actually is off topic. That is the true problem with this set, not that it may have quality issue (maybe they have, I said that I left that open). If we start deleting cosplays for being "off-topic" then we are betraying the guidelines of what's acceptable and the thought that cosplay have here no place are getting intensified. That's to avoid.

It's an established practice to evaluate every post on a case-by-case basis, and to not focus excessively on the flag reason, but to look at the overall quality of the post, correct? I was particularly confused by your stance on this set when you defended this position not even a week earlier.

I ultimately have nothing against the normalization of cosplay photos on Danbooru, but allowing cosplay posts to bypass the normal quality checks - either deliberately or out of ignorance for what constitutes artistic merit for these photos - does not send the right message whatsoever. Letting poor quality posts through to prove a point about the rules is not doing a service for the traditional Danbooru audience, nor the potential audience for high quality cosplay photos.

nonamethanks said:

In the flag list I see no entry that complains about the quality of the cosplay. "non-exceptional" means nothing in a database with millions of pictures.
And even then, it's all a matter of approvers' taste. If any of us disagrees with the flagger they are free to reapprove a post.

There's nothing else that goes on regarding how a post is judged besides whether an approver likes it or not. This is balanced out by the fact that many can flag but few can approve, and nobody can approve a post twice in a row (and it almost never happens that someone would reapprove anything twice in general anyway).

Several independent approvers have reapproved this post over several months, which means it was good enough for danbooru according to them. That's it.

If you feel that some of the deleted ones deserve to be undeleted, appeal them or post them in the deletion appeal thread - I can assure you several of us frequently check them. But what we can't do is be omniscient, which is why comparing an active picture to deleted ones makes no sense. Approvers come and go, and stuff sometimes slips by, so pictures should be judged by their merits alone, not by comparing them to others in the database.

The "non-exceptional" flag was mine. I initially chalked up the lack of comprehension of that reason to deliberate obtuseness, but perhaps that was unfair. "Non-exceptional" is my default flag reason for cosplay that lacks either (a) exceptionally high quality or (b) something else amusing or relevant about it, which by all accounts appears to be the primary criteria that approved cosplay posts meet. I realize now that that isn't a universal concept, nor a universally understandable shorthand.

I don't ask for approvers to be omniscient; it's clearly a fool's game to demand that every single post be evaluated to strict standards. However, it's undeniable that there are certain guidelines (spoken and unspoken) that determine what gets approved and what doesn't, and we've already moved the discussion in that direction by bringing up the overall history of cosplay photos being accepted. I feel it's a fair counterpoint to bring up the sort of cosplay photos that get deleted.

Finally, I generally dislike baseless accusations of cliquery, but I can't help but notice that most (if not all) of the "independent" defenders of this set are friends offsite with suspiciously similar opinions. I know there's no way to know for sure, but I have a suspicion that this specific set wouldn't have blown up so much if people didn't fan the flames on Discord whenever it got flagged.

nonamethanks said:
And even then, it's all a matter of approvers' taste. If any of us disagrees with the flagger they are free to reapprove a post.

There's nothing else that goes on regarding how a post is judged besides whether an approver likes it or not. This is balanced out by the fact that many can flag but few can approve, and nobody can approve a post twice in a row (and it almost never happens that someone would reapprove anything twice in general anyway).

Several independent approvers have reapproved this post over several months, which means it was good enough for danbooru according to them. That's it.

If you feel that some of the deleted ones deserve to be undeleted, appeal them or post them in the deletion appeal thread - I can assure you several of us frequently check them. But what we can't do is be omniscient, which is why comparing an active picture to deleted ones makes no sense. Approvers come and go, and stuff sometimes slips by, so pictures should be judged by their merits alone, not by comparing them to others in the database.

Wow, you basically say "you can think whatever you like but we'll do whatever we feel like anyway not mattering the rules". How is the system balanced if the approver can flag AND approve while doing as (s)he pleases? "Hello approver comrade, could you please reapprove this for me?" Just hours ago at least 4 or 5 approvers disliked it, one considered it low quality and it only took one person to reapprove for mere caprice "I personally reapproved it because I am not giving in". Then there is the suspicious hidden flags and unnamed approve list matter, however that could be me ignoring how the system works to retrieve that information. I also understand why you don't want to give names in order to avoid personal attacks.

But it's all right, it's your booru and you can do whatever your feel like. There's always the option to ban tags anyway. Yet, maybe people wouldn't be so upset if certain flaggers and approvers didn't start a witch hunt and deleted previously approved artworks like capital punishment in now legal so they hunted every previously sentenced, released and judged to reinforce a new law.

I'm temped to flag this with the reason "approver bias", I'm sure it's a valid reason now after the long list of appeals and biased methods to reapprove. It will bounce back anyway because the system isn't transparent.

Or we could all do THIS instead.

feline_lump said:

It's an established practice to evaluate every post on a case-by-case basis, and to not focus excessively on the flag reason, but to look at the overall quality of the post, correct? I was particularly confused by your stance on this set when you defended this position not even a week earlier.

I ultimately have nothing against the normalization of cosplay photos on Danbooru, but allowing cosplay posts to bypass the normal quality checks - either deliberately or out of ignorance for what constitutes artistic merit for these photos - does not send the right message whatsoever. Letting poor quality posts through to prove a point about the rules is not doing a service for the traditional Danbooru audience, nor the potential audience for high quality cosplay photos.

The "non-exceptional" flag was mine. I initially chalked up the lack of comprehension of that reason to deliberate obtuseness, but perhaps that was unfair. "Non-exceptional" is my default flag reason for cosplay that lacks either (a) exceptionally high quality or (b) something else amusing or relevant about it, which by all accounts appears to be the primary criteria that approved cosplay posts meet. I realize now that that isn't a universal concept, nor a universally understandable shorthand.

Yes, maybe.
A flag reason should still tackle some quality aspects of a posts. That doesn't mean I approve of such flagged posts automatically, like I didn't approve post #2890016 during the first flag that was also no valid flag reason. If such a reason is found then it falls under vandalism BUT the post still gets evaluated normally...or at least it should.
Now you can think further what I meant with " be left open": I wasn't able to approve this post since I already did it but @nonamethanks did already approve it. Meaning I already gave my opinion but was overturned by a flagger. Completely normal, so I don't want to say something about the quality of a post anymore and I think I didn't do that.

Btw. this post is extremely special.
Nearly all flags, except yours @feline_lump (and maybe one more) were written by ONE person who created multiple sockpuppet accounts. This post isn't really comparable to other posts therefore.
It might seem contradictory, but I don't want to evaluate such a post normally then when one single person is flagging but I think every Approver should then approve such a post..regardless of taste (of course that's not reality but I'd simply approve a post then).

rom_collector said:

Wow, you basically say "you can think whatever you like but we'll do whatever we feel like anyway not mattering the rules". How is the system balanced if the approver can flag AND approve while doing as (s)he pleases? "Hello approver comrade, could you please reapprove this for me?" Just hours ago at least 4 or 5 approvers disliked it, one considered it low quality and it only took one person to reapprove for mere caprice "I personally reapproved it because I am not giving in". Then there is the suspicious hidden flags and unnamed approve list matter, however that could be me ignoring how the system works to retrieve that information. I also understand why you don't want to give names in order to avoid personal attacks.

But it's all right, it's your booru and you can do whatever your feel like. There's always the option to ban tags anyway. Yet, maybe people wouldn't be so upset if certain flaggers and approvers didn't start a witch hunt and deleted previously approved artworks like capital punishment in now legal so they hunted every previously sentenced, released and judged to reinforce a new law.

I'm temped to flag this with the reason "approver bias", I'm sure it's a valid reason now after the long list of appeals and biased methods to reapprove. It will bounce back anyway because the system isn't transparent.

The system is not supposed to be balanced, at all. An approver can trump any number of others with the simple click of a button. However the fact that everyone can flag means that very rarely we have cases like this where a pic ends up being highly controversial, because rarely are pics like that found to be worthy of staying on the site by a large number of approvers (given that there's so few of them). But the fact that several approvers decided this pic belongs on the site, including two mods (one of which being the uploader), should tell you something about it.

The problem with implementing queue moderation is that there's no better way to deal with a site this large, because there's no objective metric of quality that everyone can agree with. We either let a few selected people decide what belongs on the site based on guidelines set by the owner, selecting these people based on their upload history (which is, save two or three people, the case for the current approver roster), or we let everything in (and the site turns into Gelbooru), or we let the majority decide, which is an even worse choice as anyone can tell by looking at the scores of status:deleted order:score parent:none.

As a side note, approver names are purged from the system after (I think) one or two months, and flaggers and past approvers are hidden from anyone but mods and above for privacy reasons and to avoid witch hunts.